Hdtvs Vs Crts For Tournaments

I like how Jaxel said that it's "at most a 2-3 frame difference" between a CRT and an HDTV.
In some cases that's the freaking difference between a seeable low and an unseeable one.

Not to mention JF's actually have a logical way to do them on a CRT (usually "hit this or that button right when the move connects"). There is no logic on an HDTV, it's all trial and error.
 
HDTVs with no lag exist. there is a whole giant thread on them at SRK. one day, we will have them, and enough of them to run tournaments everywhere. (look at EVO and DEVASTATION)

until that day, the idea of changing tournament standard to embrace lag is absolutely ridiculous.

i have an ssf4 pad. it is garbage. somehow i am getting used to it and it sure looks a hell of a lot cooler than a regular ps3 pad. perhaps we should force everybody to use them at tournaments so that noobs will come play cause they look so awesome....
 
The EVO TV is not "no lag", its "minimal lag"... about 8ms, half a frame. True no lag HDTVs are only available in the digital signage category and are prohibitively expensive.
 
This TV lag business might be one key factor on why this time around SC4 hasn't been as high level as it's predecessors.
 
KingAce said:
This TV lag business might be one key factor on why this time around SC4 hasn't been as high level as it's predecessors.
Click to expand...
People don't bitch about it in other fighting games... Really no one has bitched about TV lag in a long time, even in the Soulcalibur community. As I said to OOF before, he has the ability to constantly create controversy out of nothing.
 
Yea it's a controversial question but I see no problem with it. But how it looks all tournies will be run on HD tv's, I feel sorry for games that are still CRT mainly based like 3rd strike and the melee smash heads. At least in SC you can reduce the lag quite a bit, unless there's some way to make SD lag reducing on HDTV's, those players are SoL.
 
there are many led LCD now that have 4ms lag input >.>
as i already told
It seems that producers noticed the problem and begun to work in that way, so i think that we will see almost 0 lag input in future HDTV

And 4ms of lag input is almost not noticeable.

I also heard of a japanese brand of LCD monitor that could arrive at less than 2 msecs :O
 
This is just a rant.
I actually haven't read the OP, but the whole TV lag thing pisses me off.
In professional broodwar CRT monitors are standard because of this very reason.

If FG communities were as serious as other esports communities an annoyance like TV lag should be something addressed. I play on a large projection tv; it lags obviously. The difference between my TV and my friends CRT is huge.

The tournaments I have gone to, I have encountered many situations where the lag was different on each TV. From what I have experienced it doesn't really matter what kind of TV it is; maybe its a problem with settings not sure. Don't know what causes it. I think even controller lag exists to some extent. And if you can't notice stuff like that, like the majority of players then maybe you think its okay.

But the fact is whether you notice it or not, lag makes a difference on your game. I have seen it happen to people and experienced it myself. Even if it's one small instance in a match, hell we all play SC4 that's enough to change the entire flow of the game.

When the lag isn't there or noticeable, to me it's an entirely different game. They're lows in the game I thought you can't block on reaction, turns out it was lag. Now I am starting to get into Tekken 6, a much faster game...well anyway IMO it matters.

If FGs communities are serious about their competitions and trying to become Esports, TV lag needs to be addressed.
That's why personally the only competitions in terms FGs I take seriously are SF4 in Japan on Arcades, and when SSF4AE comes out. Also tekken crash or Green Arcade matches for T6 in SKorea.

/rant.
 
This is such a non-issue since we use CRTs. HDTVs look pretty, but I rather not hear somebody bitch about how they got their ass whooped due to lag.

Plus there's nothing for the FG community to address since no one else is bitching about lag, and tournaments are run by individuals who will run things how they see fit.

P.S. Daigo doesn't even take SSF4AE seriously because it's not widely accessible in America where he's been making that cheddah.
 
KingAce, I'm honestly surprise to see this post coming from you. You're believing what I'm exactly believing and I agree with you finally...

However, some of your quotes led me to questioning your beliefs based on your argument in the Online/Offline Debate Thread so if you're ready for another round of debate then plz do so in that thread.

Malice, honestly I think bitching about lag is reasonable. I mean why is it that we exclude online tournaments as the main event? Mainly because of lag. Is it fair to say that this person is better than you because he/she beats you in a lag environment you can't handle? I don't think that's fair.

My fear is that by allowing TVs that do lag gives ppl the WRONG msg. It may tell newcomers that this player is overall better than the that player when the player may have a good chance of beating that same someone on a no-lag TV. But thank god HDTV isn't considered a standard here.
 
darkfender said:
there are many led LCD now that have 4ms lag input >.>
as i already told
It seems that producers noticed the problem and begun to work in that way, so i think that we will see almost 0 lag input in future HDTV

And 4ms of lag input is almost not noticeable.

I also heard of a japanese brand of LCD monitor that could arrive at less than 2 msecs :O
Click to expand...
So my question remains... WHERE are you getting this 4ms figure from? Are you getting it from the panel manufacturer? Or from people on forums who are actually testing it? How are they testing it? The only way to truly test for input lag is to use a distribution amp, line up two TVs, the TV you want to test, and a 0ms baseline (a TV you know for a fact has 0ms of lag)... then run a frame counter on it, and snap a photograph. Compare the numbers between the two displays on the photograph and you will have the actual lag.

Lots of people online do something called the "guitar hero / rock band test", where they hold up one of the guitars that are designed to compensate for lag, and it gives you a result. The problem is that these tests are highly inaccurate; on my own TV, (which I have calculated myself to 36ms of lag), I get a varied result every time. Doing something like 10 tests, I received results anywhere from 20ms to 80ms. Except for a truly scientific test like the one I posted above, you can't know the actual input lag.

Now if you got the 4ms figure from the panel manufacturer, then I can tell you they are not talking about input lag, but refresh rate; and once again, refresh rate is not the same as input lag. Most panel manufacturers claim to have anywhere between 2ms-8ms refresh rate... which in most cases, is a lie. If your TV had a 2ms refresh rate, that means that it should be able to display 500fps. There isn't a single TV on the consumer market that does more than 240fps, and that is an over 4ms refresh rate.

I see LCD monitors with a 2ms refresh rate "score"... that only does 60hz (fps)... That means in reality, it only has a refresh rate of 16.7ms, but it uses frame duplication and interpolation to mimic the remaining frames in order to prevent ghosting. You'll also notice that these refresh rates vary by technology. A 16ms IPS monitor will actually look better than a 4ms TN film monitor because the IP technology doesn't have the same worries about ghosting that a TN film monitor does, so they dont need to do the interpolation required to reduce ghosting, and the "score"
 
Franman online I compensate, I make adjustments mentally and adapt. But the way I play offline, isn't very stiff at all, for every thought I expect immediate results on the screen, any slight delay throws me off. So unfortunately for me TV lag is pretty obvious. And offline I just don't expect to make adjustments like I am playing the game online it's stupid.

And what's worse is that people don't notice it, it doesn't bother them which blows my mind. But because of this the difference between high level SC3 and SC4 is astounding...in Sc3 no one would give you an inch. SC4 the game is played very sacrificial you let shit hit you and move on, punishing sucks for a majority of players and it appears to be slow. The first time I saw the kura's vids I thought it was a different game they were playing.

I play on a laggy TV, but when I do play on a clean one, it's like my eyes light up. I take more risks and turtle a lot less because I know I can react to shit.

It's funny I didn't like Tekken because it is played very sacrificial since you can't react to most lows and certain situations are basically a gamble. But characters like Amy, Voldo and even hilde basically changed my style completely and if I am playing SC4 like it's T6, might as well pick up T6.

I liked SC2 and SC3 because your defense was mostly reactionary, in SC4 there's too much anticipation going on. We're playing Tekken with ringouts IMO.

SSF4AE has some of the stupidest changes I have ever heard of in a FG. But once it hits, I will be ignoring everything else western SSF for the most part. Japan is where the level is highest.
 
Jaxel said:
So my question remains... WHERE are you getting this 4ms figure from? Are you getting it from the panel manufacturer? Or from people on forums who are actually testing it? How are they testing it? The only way to truly test for input lag is to use a distribution amp, line up two TVs, the TV you want to test, and a 0ms baseline (a TV you know for a fact has 0ms of lag)... then run a frame counter on it, and snap a photograph. Compare the numbers between the two displays on the photograph and you will have the actual lag.
Click to expand...
As you said....
For HDTV i get it from most famous High end AV site in italy, that test the thing by connecting 2 monitors (a 0 lag sd and the HDTV to test) to the same output.
On the monitor are displayed various type of images, and a tiny timer in a corner.
Making snapshot of the two monitors u get the difference between the 2 timers as input lag, repeat many times with many different images and u get your lag input value.
They test the whole thing with filters, without all filters and in game mode.

For that jap monitor i forgot the name, is actually the producer that focuses on lag input to sell a product expecially designed for gamers.

There are few models (for ex Panasonic TX-P46G10 or Sharp 46 LE700) that have average 5ms input lag. (in game mode, 80ms with filters activated)
 
The monitor is a LG (which is a Korean company) W2363 but it's a special one built for gamers and ya I think the 3ms is input lag time and not refresh.
 
LG SL8000seris is 10ms Average input lag in game mode >__> but i think products name are different in europe, or maybe also in japan you have newer models we still do not have.
 
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