Siegfried Anti Matchup Discussion: Building A Master Guide

Astaroth vs. Siegfried

- I got something to add to Astaroth his 4[A+B] can be stepped in its earlier frames and needs to be done up close or it will track like a bitch at any point in time and also tracks in its later frames no matter the range so pretty much the opposite of mitsu's 624 B UB you wanna step before it hits. Now that move is so easily stepped up close even in its earlier frames that you'll get his back not that it matters to much since he can break back grabs. I tried to think of other situations where Asta would do 4[A+B] besides an opponent thats grounded I've seen some Asta's do it after his frame traps I.E. WR A, BR, 3[A+B], and 4. One thing to note about his frame traps all of them push back so if Asta tries 4[A+B] Sieg can 4A+B SRSH A+B for a whiff punish. The only one I couldnt get out of the way from with 4A+B consistently is when I block 3[A+B] up close which the moment you see flames 4A+B SRSH A+B you should get CH damage. Now remember if your against a wall and you see that 4[A+B] dont hesitate to step the moment you see it instead of think what should I do? Then get grabbed.


- Also a tiny thing to add that may work once I remember back in my scrub days I used 6AB a lot because I knew it was i12 NCC so I would do that against 3 well Offbeat Ninja took advantage of this fact and would 3 so he would get hit by the 6A block the B and punish me. I miss playing him
 
Synraii said:
One question - why not just interrupt with 3(B) SCH A+B.
A much stronger deterrent I find...
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Just throwing out other options it never hurts to have more than one option. Also its a possibility that an Astaroth could throw out 4[A+B] with your back to the edge. From there launch with 22_88 B and hit them with SRSH B for a RO. I have seen an Astaroth use that move with the opponent's back to the other edge before shit I've done it before actually. Also 4[A+B] can be stepped either direction so that's even more of an incentive to use 22_88 B if ever in that situation.

JAGTHEGEMINI said:
4A+B is an awesome unblockable... You should FEAR it!! :p
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I do fear it and use it since Astaroth is my main
 
I guess you're right, btw, how heavy is the disadvantage should asta attempt and whiff it as a tech trap or on wakeup, due to opponent staying grounded?
On a side note, I've recently been practicing JIing it, for no practical purpose other than to be a smart ass, I doubt I'd ever try it in a fight unless I had a comfortable lead, but I'd feel so superior for it XD
 
lol well all of these are better than the habit i developed of jumping at astaroth when he 4{A+B}'s XD. of course we could always result in trying to 44K him out of it for great RO range + comical taunting purposes. im surprised u didnt think of that synraii =P
 
Or I could just..let go of A+B and you can eat my mid...lol. I"ll give you something universal against Asta.

One of Asta's scariest moves is BT B+K..when he gets the CH for it he can set up a Tech Trap with 4(A+B). It hurts..So just take the free ground damage he dishes out :D.
 
I'm pretty sure blocked BT B+K will give you a free 1B if he tries to BT B+K again, since it pushes you back far enough. Will try it later.
 
Slayer_X64 said:
lol well all of these are better than the habit i developed of jumping at astaroth when he 4{A+B}'s XD. of course we could always result in trying to 44K him out of it for great RO range + comical taunting purposes. im surprised u didnt think of that synraii =P
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I reserve my dropkicks for more spectacular hits - eg interrupting 9[B+K] XD
 
So I played Slayer online, had some good matches although I missed inputs like a coked out hamster. Good games to you. Few thoughts: as I guessed, iWS B is pretty baller vs Voldo. Although one thing I have noticed, is that I thought SCH KK was NC, yet the second hit seems to whiff pretty often. Maybe my imagination. Another key point: Voldo really has problems grabbing Sieg. I have to say it's complete horseshit to be standing right beside a character and have the grab fail, but I guess since overall Voldo is still better there's not much sympathy to be found complaining. So Sieg players can use this to their advantage. Don't randomly duck, don't give the Voldo any easy mids. Make him work and come in. (Note Voldo does have the jump grabs but these are slower, do less damage, given you more time to break, easier to punish on whiff, etc).

VS 2A+B: you can't space this move out with Sieg's tools as far as I know. It has very good range, i.e. 2A+B is often a credible threat vs 44B attacks. Usually it can catch these stepback attacks on CH for huge damage. The two things to do vs 2A+B are first to do what I said, make the Voldo pay for any wrong guesses as heavily as possible. Guess aggressively and mix it up. Secondly, you can try to discourage 2A+B usage by being aggressive and occasionally cheating on frames. 2A+B is really slow. Then on the other hand, Sieg doesn't have such great tools for that.

On a different note, goddam 3B online is such bullshit. Slayer I know you were trying to play very ethically and didn't use any of Sieg's lag lows and for that I give you credit. But 3B is punishable, period. You should be eating AA or K every single time you 3B on block. Taking attacks/initiative/evasion after 3B is online abuse, pure and simple. You even hit me with SCH B after 3B on block once. It's like this Cervantes player I play who GI's after WR A, a move which is like -19 or something. And it works against my i16 punisher.
 
Nirf said:
So I played Slayer online, had some good matches although I missed inputs like a coked out hamster. Good games to you. Few thoughts: as I guessed, iWS B is pretty baller vs Voldo. Although one thing I have noticed, is that I thought SCH KK was NC, yet the second hit seems to whiff pretty often. Maybe my imagination. Another key point: Voldo really has problems grabbing Sieg. I have to say it's complete horseshit to be standing right beside a character and have the grab fail, but I guess since overall Voldo is still better there's not much sympathy to be found complaining. So Sieg players can use this to their advantage. Don't randomly duck, don't give the Voldo any easy mids. Make him work and come in. (Note Voldo does have the jump grabs but these are slower, do less damage, given you more time to break, easier to punish on whiff, etc).

VS 2A+B: you can't space this move out with Sieg's tools as far as I know. It has very good range, i.e. 2A+B is often a credible threat vs 44B attacks. Usually it can catch these stepback attacks on CH for huge damage. The two things to do vs 2A+B are first to do what I said, make the Voldo pay for any wrong guesses as heavily as possible. Guess aggressively and mix it up. Secondly, you can try to discourage 2A+B usage by being aggressive and occasionally cheating on frames. 2A+B is really slow. Then on the other hand, Sieg doesn't have such great tools for that.

On a different note, goddam 3B online is such bullshit. Slayer I know you were trying to play very ethically and didn't use any of Sieg's lag lows and for that I give you credit. But 3B is punishable, period. You should be eating AA or K every single time you 3B on block. Taking attacks/initiative/evasion after 3B is online abuse, pure and simple. You even hit me with SCH B after 3B on block once. It's like this Cervantes player I play who GI's after WR A, a move which is like -19 or something. And it works against my i16 punisher.
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-SCH KK is a NC, but the 2nd hit misses if the 1st hit hits you either while ur in TC or FC.
-alot of characters, especially apprentice and voldo have problems grabbing sieg because of the way his hitbox changes while hes guarding.

Yes i always try to play ethically. i've played both online and offline and im well aware of how lag affects the game.

as for us, yea good games. i was randomly ducking because i found that even when i did feel like i successfully ducked stuff like BS 1A and fullrun/step ~ grab stuff that i was still consistently eating them anyways; hence y i just started jumping them in our last few matches.

about 3B, i would hold ur horses on that one. while i understand it is laggy, for 1 i wasnt able to do it on purpose, so whenever i did attack after its because i couldnt hit confirm properly; it only happened 3 or 4 times out of the 10 or so matches we had and didnt so much even affect the outcome of the match. 3B is -5 on grd, so SCH K comes out at i16 which forces you to use any move i15 or less as a punisher, when compared to the usual -24 on grd if i cancel the stance and block(it takes 19 frames to cancel the stance.) and 3B is hardly that bad of a move at tip range where most of your retaliation will miss anyways(thats where i did the 3B SCH B and u ate it. at this point you should have stepped.) if u have trouble punishing it i suggest you practice it a little more or simply step the entire stance like i do. or you can pick sophie and TAS B TAS B my ass for it. but online is online. everything is boosted, and theres alot like i could feel i could complain about in our matches, although i'll only bring up some of the more prominent stuff. something that irked me was i would react to things that you would do like 2A+B ~ 2A+B and i would attempt to interrupt with WR K which is i15 yet still be interrupted anyways. even tried step G after the 1st 2A+B and it was killing my step G(not sure if 2A+B has any tracking but still) but the move is -15 on grd, and im almost 100% certain i was at least able to react to whether or not you were following up or not, yet i would still eat stuff like 2A+B ~ 2A+B anyways. this paralyzed me into fear to the point where i didnt want to do anything but block. i hadn't a clue how to deal with it after that. i mean 2A+B after 2A+B is coming out at i35.

and while im sure its because of the fact that voldo has trouble grabbing siegfried that you were grab whiffing then attacking after, i can tell you after the 1st few times i was almost damn sure i was interrupting you for that. IMO thats a pretty bad online shenanigan, i shouldnt have to act super paranoid and mash the crap out of 1K every time i see that happen.

perhaps im coming off a little too strongly here; that is not my intention. another example would be how in our amy mirrors your 33B was killing my step G 100% of the time. hopefully from that example you can understand where im coming from.

as for vs voldo himself, my anti voldo is very weak. i rarely fight voldo, so my punishment is fairly bad. but i am aware of the fact that siegfried can punish alot of voldo's moves with either b6 or 3B.

iWR B is a great tool for sieg, but it has alot of openings. although the timing is very difficult to get down, if you try to step 2G it to siegs left, you can usually kill the stance with FC A, or even a WR attack. the same works for 3B. but remember that a delayed SCH B will re-track step and force you to block.
 
I think you are right, I did jump the gun a bit. I'll reconsider this stuff. I have zero trouble punishing it offline, its just online that its amazingly difficult. I play against people who abuse the crap out of it and I can still barely punish with AA (i14) so I use K (i13). Its ridiculous. But I will suck it up though in the future as long its in moderation.
As to 2A+B stuff. First off, the move isn't actually -15, because you never do the move without the cancel. I was doing the invisible cancel, 2A+B236G which is -3 and leaves Voldo FC. Then I RCC and do another. So it's coming out more like i28 or 29. Also, when you tried to interrupt, I am sure you didn't do it instantly out of blockstun. If you had then for sure even online you would have interrupted, there's no way that it wouldn't. But if you hesitate after that blockstun to see what I'm going to do, all bets are off. Yeah you are ahead framewise but the moment you aren't doing it instantly, who knows how many frames you lose? It's almost impossible to tell where Voldo is in the animation, the cancel from Crawl stance to guard isn't obvious at all. But yeah, there is no denying its boosted online. Its just that its still very good off.
Also 2A+B tracks in one direction, to Voldo's right I believe but don't quote me. As for punishing Voldo's moves, I don't know about a lot. The only two really punishable moves I use as Voldo are 3A and FC3B. They are both -16. So you can go for the B6 punish. I rarely use 3A, but FC3B is definitely something you should look for and try to punish although its pretty tight.
I hope we get a chance to play again.
 
Nirf said:
I think you are right, I did jump the gun a bit. I'll reconsider this stuff. I have zero trouble punishing it offline, its just online that its amazingly difficult. I play against people who abuse the crap out of it and I can still barely punish with AA (i14) so I use K (i13). Its ridiculous. But I will suck it up though in the future as long its in moderation.
As to 2A+B stuff. First off, the move isn't actually -15, because you never do the move without the cancel. I was doing the invisible cancel, 2A+B236G which is -3 and leaves Voldo FC. Then I RCC and do another. So it's coming out more like i28 or 29. Also, when you tried to interrupt, I am sure you didn't do it instantly out of blockstun. If you had then for sure even online you would have interrupted, there's no way that it wouldn't. But if you hesitate after that blockstun to see what I'm going to do, all bets are off. Yeah you are ahead framewise but the moment you aren't doing it instantly, who knows how many frames you lose? It's almost impossible to tell where Voldo is in the animation, the cancel from Crawl stance to guard isn't obvious at all. But yeah, there is no denying its boosted online. Its just that its still very good off.
Also 2A+B tracks in one direction, to Voldo's right I believe but don't quote me. As for punishing Voldo's moves, I don't know about a lot. The only two really punishable moves I use as Voldo are 3A and FC3B. They are both -16. So you can go for the B6 punish. I rarely use 3A, but FC3B is definitely something you should look for and try to punish although its pretty tight.
I hope we get a chance to play again.
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indeed, and thanks for sharing the useful voldo info. hes always been one of those characters i was never really able to understand to use or fight, even after going through his frames and stuff.
 
Great example you're setting Slayer, with the whole keep on topic thing.
Keeping with this thought, useful counter for Voldo's 3BB:
Block 1st hit, step left and punish with 1B.
Obviously this is completely impossible online - so you can quit bitching about 3B followups Nirf =P
Love you really.
 
Dani_Hungerford said:
Step sig to the left, and he's that much easier.
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well outside of stance anyhow. if u step left while im in chief hold, SCH A will step kill you, delayed SCH B will re-track you. SSH A also starts up from that side, and SBH B tracks that side i believe. im not certain but i think SRSH also tracks to his left. so outside of stance step left, inside of stance step right.
 
Syn, I almost never use 3BB. It's really not that great a move, I think Voldo's just do it as they get lazy. A+B is better in just about every way, with the exception of gauge damage. So I use 3B sometimes when the gauge is flashing. If you haven't seen it before in the match, it's pretty hard to step the way you're describing even offline. So this generally puts on a lot of pressure for the opponent to GI, which you can use to bait whiffs.
To be honest, I think Voldo's 3BB reminds me of Sieg's 3B in some ways. They are both tools you see a ton online cause its hard to expose their weaknesses, and they both have some good strengths. However offline the punishment you endure for using these tools makes them much weaker. What's a little sad for Sieg is his lack of alternatives for mid mixups. Honestly I don't even know what good Sieg's use for mixup offline, all the frame data is completely junk.
Moments like this remind me that 3/4 of the SC4 cast would kill for a simple, effective mid mixup move like Voldo A+B.
 
Nirf said:
Syn, I almost never use 3BB. It's really not that great a move, I think Voldo's just do it as they get lazy. A+B is better in just about every way, with the exception of gauge damage. So I use 3B sometimes when the gauge is flashing. If you haven't seen it before in the match, it's pretty hard to step the way you're describing even offline. So this generally puts on a lot of pressure for the opponent to GI, which you can use to bait whiffs.
To be honest, I think Voldo's 3BB reminds me of Sieg's 3B in some ways. They are both tools you see a ton online cause its hard to expose their weaknesses, and they both have some good strengths. However offline the punishment you endure for using these tools makes them much weaker. What's a little sad for Sieg is his lack of alternatives for mid mixups. Honestly I don't even know what good Sieg's use for mixup offline, all the frame data is completely junk.
Moments like this remind me that 3/4 of the SC4 cast would kill for a simple, effective mid mixup move like Voldo A+B.
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hmm...no i wouldn't say frame data is junk at all. i mean yes there is much more to playing the game than frame data, but its the very thing that even gives most of us the knowledge to say even know that tools such as 3B are counteractable in the 1st place; otherwise we'd all think 3{B} SCH K is a frame trap im sure. however while tools such as that are punishable, you definitely see them thrown out alot offline simply because when they work they're very strong against most opponents. im not really much of a 3B guy myself, but i'd let pantocrator vouch for 3B any day of the week, he really knows how to use it well.

for sieg offline, he can get alot of uninterruptible stance transitions into forced mixups off knockdowns ~ almost all of his whiff punishment options allow this. he has a good strong mid ranged poking game, and a couple of strong lows that give good advantage or knockdown while simultaneously being very difficult to punish by being around only -15 and possessing incredible range. siegfried also has a fairly good grab game due to the combination for the fact that he has vaccum grab range, and the fact that he has probably one of the strongest front steps in the game. while siegfried struggles in the speed department, hes not totally rendered useless up close either. while K may be a simple i13 move taken for granted by most characters, its possibly one of my favorite moves, because its +2 on hit makes a world of difference for siegfried. he may not have the raw power that voldo has, but he draws alot of his strength from gimmicks, mind games and tactical prowess, and he has the tools to adapt to alot of different situations. its not like hes a handicapped character or anything. in fact its probably safe to say he's fairly underrated. hes on pretty even ground with most of the cast save for sophie, and those that outmatch him simply take a bit of strategy and patience to beat successfully. stances alone give him tremendous mixup options, and his incredible poking game only serves to increase his own probability of success when executing those mixup options.

anyways i think i'll be working on setsuka this next week. been learning her for a little while now. gonna also update the ivy with a few things.
 
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