Post-GI Mixups

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I think WSB is superior to bullrush in this case in every possible way.

I thought you could get the bullrush out in time, WSB would be for the delay. Might be wrong, though.

 

[Fuzion]

I'm opposed to using fast options for both GI and reGI
If you GI and then wait for them to re-GI you will end up at a disadvantage. you'll either get your slow option blocked or interrupted.

I gotta disagree here. I think it's almost impossible to wind up at frame disadvantage if you're used to using this method. For me, I find it's actually addicting to use my delay option more than my immediate i20 launch because I know either im going to launch a whiffed GI on reaction or wind up at large frame advantage, so I end up not doing my immediate launch as much which can be a problem when they just stop re-GIing.

Here's an example though, lets say you block the first two hits of kiliks asura dance. kilik is now at -23 but you don't know if he's going to do the final hit or not. obviously most people won't just throw the 3rd hit out often, but let's ignore the psychology of that since this is just an example of frames and this situation can actually be easily recreated in practice mode. it's quite possible to just wait for the 3rd hit, and if it doesn't come out then punish with an i14 attack like AA (maybe i15 and i16 moves if you're really good). which means they were still at -14 by the time you recognized that the 3rd hit didnt come out and inputted your i14 move. which then means, it only took about 9 frames (to go from -23 and recover to -14 is 9 frames) to notice that their ONLY other option at that point - the 3rd hit of asura - didn't come out.

This is basically the same as a GI situation, in that they are at -20 and only have one possible option besides guard and wait to recover, which is re-GI. So basically, at best you are at about +11 by the time you notice they did not re-GI. If you're slower maybe you don't notice for another 3-5 frames and then you're at +8 or +6. But actually winding up at legitimate frame disadvantage after GIing someone and waiting I think is pretty unlikely unless you're really not used to doing it - which can happen. Just takes time to get used to if so

 

[Belial]

Fuzion:
well, fast human reaction is around 12 frames. normal is probably slower. it is safe to assume a reGI is happening around 13th frame at best, to hit 3B's etc. that basically mean, that at the very best you will realize no re-Gi is happening on frame 25 after GI'ing. which is roughly equal a -5 frame disadvantage.
what you're implying on Asura dance is another way of progressive defending and has nothing to do with reaction times.

 

[Fuzion]

Hmm well that's a good point about the reGI maybe not coming out until about the 13th frame of recovery, because yea probably no one is reGIing after like 2 or 3 frames of being GI'd to begin with.. also I can't remember offhand how many frames after performing 6G the GI window is open for to impact incoming attacks. Still, if you GI somebody and put them at -20 and just run up on them, you have all the time in the world for a mixup, especially if you notice that they whiffed GI. That situation happens regularly in my matches, and I never see people get GI'd and then mash throws from massive disadvantage like you said... that throw would take like 37 frames to come out, I don't see how that would be effective. After you get GI'd you're pretty much on defense and are facing a mixup, not the other way around.

 

[Belial]

Gi starts at 2nd frame and is open for 6 or 8 frames i think

quick list of what beats re-GI
1) B~g cancel (or do nothing) -> fast post GI option.
Adv: possible more dmg than generic slow option
Disadv: probably punishable on guard if no re-GI is coming.

2) Use massive GI-adv to mix up
Adv: re-GI is no longer a factor
Disadv: giving up a better (post GI) mixup in favor of a worse (normal mix up).

3) punish re-GI on reaction, if no re-GI is coming, apply a standing mixup
Adv: more damage than generic slow option.
Disadv: can be interrupted. giving up a good mixup in favor of a worse one.

4) generic slow option
Adv: safe, not interruptible
Disadv: probably less damage than fast post GI option.

Why is post GI mixup better than a generic?
It deals launcher damage on both parts and is technically safe on both parts, even if opp manages to GI thats no free damage for him. While one part of standing mixup is always unsafe, often - both parts.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

For Talim, her most damaging fast option is 44AA, 2A+B ~ 56 dmg

If you're not taking 100% reliability into account than her most damaging slow options are 236B, 66B, 22B, (71 dmg) followed by 236B, 66B, 44B (67 dmg).

Sometimes one of the hits in 22B whiffs on certain characters, and the camera changing sides can screw up the 44B making it read as 66B.

 

[Kersijus]

Hello, I'd like to know what is the window frame for a simple impact (6G, 3G) to work and what is your frame disadvantage if you miss it ? Sorry if it was already answered.

 

[Signia]

For Sophie, her most damaging options for post-GI within the 20 frames and for the re-GI counter is TAS B:4 and delayed TAS B:4, respectively, both dealing 80 damage. However, since TAS B is -10 on block and the JF is hard, it will probably be better to use 66B TAS B which does 4 less damage (76) but is -2 on block and leaves Sophie at her optimal spacing.

Even if you just land the TAS B4 without the JF it does 65 damage which is 3 less than 3B TAS B. Imo 3B TAS B is his her most difficult juggle (other than that silly 66B b2B:B236B combo). Hitting the JF for TAS B is also very difficult but at least you have a safety net.

Choosing 3B or TAS B is subjective in that you can get 3 different damage values based how close you are in your execution.

3B followups: 28/55/68 (ty suirad)
none (TAS B was too late, facepalm) 20ish damage
236B (botched the timing or the double qcf motion) 55 damage
TAS B (wait a sec then spazz out on the arcade stick) 68 damage

TAS B JF 50/65/80
missed the JF (still not too shabby but gives you shit oki) 50 damage
4 (something you gotta be able to hit consistently) 65 damage
:4 (look like a fucking boss going into the dramatic angle after a GI) 80 damage

As a third option that you guys seem to neglect which I like to call the fast post-GI move Sophie has is 236B for 35/45/55 damage which comes out in 14 frames. You can't actually cover all options within the 20 frame GI window if you want to; you still need to guess which part of that 20 frame range the move will come in. i14 236B and i18-i20 236236B (theoretically it can i15 but in practice it's much slower) or i20 3B is too large a gap to cover.

That was probably more information than a non-sophie main needs but it really seems like her post GI mixups are the strongest in the game once your master TAS B:4. If you have that move in your back pocket Sophie is easily top tier.

 

[Suirad]

If you think it's hard after 3B, you should try after CH 44A! I mentioned the TAS:B option when Osu was asking about Sophie's options, but I figured it was on the hard side to land the 4s, so I said 3B would be better. Maybe it's cause I play pad, but I never thought 3B TAS B was all that bad. In the end it just comes down to what the player can and can't do, they should probably go with whatever they can make consistent. 3B damage = 28 btw.

 

[D.I.N.O]

Another mix up is Low/Throw mixup

Lows post gi require a 3g/1g, if they then 3g/1g you get free CH highs, or throw, which damage-wise, is a fair trade-off.