8WAYRUN.com

Theres a BIG dif between asking what a move is and how to use it. The mechanics of a game should not be left to players to figure out. They're ambiguous and leads to misinformation. Once we understand what they are then we can put it together. SSF4 had a LOT to test and they gave out the frame data and info on what EX's.

We should be tasked with how to string moves together, finding best punishes, finding out what beats what, spacing, frame traps, tech traps, SG traps, gimiks, etc... Frame data only helps us give a direction on some of those and leaves plenty to explore. It's still left to the player to figure out what to do with the info.

The game should be about how you use them, not who memorized all the technical stuff. That stuff should be easy access, not exclusive knowledge.

"don't knock it till you try it" is what i always say. a new game is like a puzzle. sure it is pretty to look at in the end, but putting it together is where the real joy comes from. the funnest part of having a new game

is figuring out what the fastest move period is, and then testing things based on it. LOTS of us really enjoy this more than anything else. would you want to put together a puzzle if it came out of the box with all the edges already complete? i can tell you right now, definitively, that including frame data in the new game will instantly cut the tournament life of it in half.

We can get a list of all the frames and glance to find punishes sure, but you still need to test range and determine which one's will provide the best result. Damage isn't always the key factor, I sometimes opt for frames or SG pressure.

Not giving us the data is like doing a puzzle where every piece looks nearly the same..I dunno bout you but I fuckin hate those parts when they cover too much of the puzzle. Once again plenty of games have the info out...and they still do fine and have plenty to test. It's proven through history.

I'd rather have info to start forming my game plan and strategy, rather than spend hours testing to find if they're even viable options...then get pissed when I find some obscure detail that negates everything or replaces it.

There's novelty in finding the stuff, but what people want to do it play the game. They want to test what they can do with the mechanics, not what the hell they are. What is no one figured out step and 8wayrun were different for a year?!? Point it a lot of people are forced to guess because the data is incomplete or inaccurate and its frustrating as hell since there's FAAAAR too much data to test for.

um what? everyone knew the difference between step and 8wayrun...in 2001...

The damn punish list I did for Ivy vs Ivy took me 4-5 hours to put together and I had to write TONS of specifics...and that was WITH the frame data (btw inaccuracies were abundant!)...for ONE character vs ONE character. It would take MONTHS with the frame data given to me to still put that a full punish list of every character vs every character

it was a hypothetical. while an easy find, most players STILL do not know the difference because it's not told to them, so they dont use it in the game.

and lack of want or willingness to find it is what separates lazy scrubs from the rest of us.

/argument

:P

But why make the knowledge of the game so hard to obtain. It creates a research barrier thats unnecessary. It should be about skills and you can't really utilize skills without the knowledge, so people that may be very good with strategy or reaction or completely gimped by the fact they MUST do obscene amounts of research when it could be made more accessible.

The theory that its fun to do frame data research is fun for a few and alienating to a HUGE community. If anything releasing the data will gain more people for the community, increase the competitive level of players, help people learn the concept of it with in game practice mode. It's a LOT of pros and only cons for those people that want to do research on info thats already collected somewhere.

I'm seriously at a loss how you're not getting that this is an unneeded part of research. The amount of pros vs cons in the argument is staggering, my theory has been proven in action by other games, and the work is already done.

I'm a flash developer/web developer. It's my job to learn what tags and code mean so i can build with them, it would be absurd if someone asked me to figure out the code that makes the internet work in the first place. Some people know, but its unneeded to do my job and would be overly tedious and make an unneeded research cap to get in the field.